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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Rodolphe Mortreuil, MKMC ()
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| Company: |
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| Amen, Dominic, your comments are very true.
Now that the flak is coming your way, know there's at least a few of us in your corner. |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
giles.percy ()
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| Company: |
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| I doubt very much that candidate opinions will change the agency situation. In the area in which the author operates there is considerable oversupply of candidates with quantitative skills and very little real pattern to the hiring decisions of managers. The agencies reflect the aspirations of the candidates and the egos of the managers.
Often it comes down to personal preferences and self interest, and that means hiring managers try and maximise the pool of candidates that they review. This means CVs have value and so the agencies CV harvest and go for volume rather than quality. Long term relationships are not important in a business where long term relationships do not matter.
Take for example a well known hedge fund that is currently doing the rounds - they advertise everywhere, with every agency, and yet they still cannot satisfy their recruitment needs in a pool of candidates that is of higher quality than any other business. Why is that ?
The agencies may be parasites, but on what are they feeding ?
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
In-house headhunter ()
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| Company: |
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| Hear hear, Dominic. As an ex-headhunter from a retained search business who is now working in-house for a fund, I can only echo that everyone involved (hiring managers, HR, and candidates) has a responsibility to check out who they're dealing with. Further, I recommend that HR/in-house recruiters so as I do, and also ask all candidates (not just those they hire) for feedback on the recruiter they've been introduced by. |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
a headhunter ()
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| Company: |
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| Rodolphe, as far as I know you didn't have prior banking experience when entering the recruitment sector...
I don't think (like Dominic says) that you really need first-hand experience from the sector you're recruiting in, you simply have to know what they do and what they need; of course, in depth industry knowledge ist a must; a good headhunter probably has more relevant knowledge of the industry than most professionals working banking...
I don't have any financial services experience at all (in fact no experience from any other sector than headhunting), but I am very respected by my clients, tier-one i-banks, pe funds, asset managers as well as by relevant candidates
I totally agree with the statements regarding the quality issue, especially in London there are more crap headhunters than good ones
regarding the parasite-accusation: so what? |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Henry ()
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| Company: |
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| "Recruitment consultancy". The profession for grads who have failed in life. |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Alan ()
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| Company: |
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| Althouh my last two roles including my present role were obtained through agencies I still find them quite annoying and incompetent at times.
One recruter forgot to send mmy most recent CV to the client. So at the interview I could see that my interviewer was on a different plane than me, until I gave him my up to date CV.
And what's this habit you have of not calling the candidate to inform him/her whether or not he/she has been successful? Especially if its the latter. At least have the decency to inform the candidate. |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
guest ()
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| Company: |
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| nicely put, DC
you get the conference placed, wilmott.com, P&D, the CQF and can even b*tch about competitors....
well done!
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
PPDA ()
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| Company: |
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| Carpet bombers are king on the quant market and I believe it is entirely the banks' fault. If they don't like the practice they should just take the agencies at fault off their PSL instead of allowing them to spam. I used to work for a recruitment firm that had developed complex IT systems to allow consultants to spam huge numbers of managers. These tools were not so much used for placing FO traders, structurers or sales but they were enforced on the quants desk. Quants is a candidate-driven and high volume market. Most hiring managers or HR do not bother establishing real preferred relationships with agents and thus foster a practice of 1st come 1st serve hence the spamming. More and more HR rely on online portals for submitting CVs further alienating the recruiters they supposedly work with and forcing them to adopt desperate measures. Your views should be mitigated by the fact that on trading, structuring and sales for example you have plenty of very good search firms that work in a very different way – candidates and banks should maybe take more time researching who they are dealing with.
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
John ()
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| Company: |
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| Reminds me of one recruiter who added jobs I had never even done when they converted my CV into their own format. Bearing in mind it's now unlawful to falsify stuff on your CV nowadays, their incompetance was amazing.
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
a headhunter ()
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| Company: |
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| what I'll never understand is why you guys actually use headhunters for your career progression? if all headhunters are really that bad and never really help you getting the important interview, why don't you apply directly at your favourite future employer?
is it because you probably wouldn't get this interview if you were job hunting on your own? because you don't know about the relevant vacancies or don't know how to approach your future employer? or because you know there is no point in waiting for a board member of a bulge bracket to contact you directly to offer you a job? or you know you need them, but hate them, because you are jealous that headhunters earn the same or more than you do for doing an 'improper' job? |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Alan ()
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| Company: |
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| mr "a headhunter", I (and most other people in the city) have had equal success applying directly via company websites.
And its you (the headhunters) that contact us. We place our profiles on efinancialcareers and you ring us up with jobs. We are not saying we don't need you, all we are saying is that sometimes some of you and by saying some of you I mean about 98% act very unprofessionally.
Yes I said 98, because from my experience headhunters/search firms/recruiter/agencies (or whatever flashy name you may come up with in order to look good in the eyes of Goldman, UBS, JPM, Merrill etc) act in a similar fashion.
Its time REC or whatever organisation that regulates recruitment firm put a code of conduct in place. |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Research ()
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| Company: |
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| Being a Recruitment Consultant really doesn't require any skill at all (except maybe being able to pick up a telephone), hence why so many graduates (and non-graduates) enter the "profession". The people who work in recruitment at this level generally have no substantial work experience outside of the recruitment industry and very limited knowledge of the market and companies they recruit for. VOLUME is the key - post fake jobs online to get as many CVs to fill your database, send out as many CVs to companies as possible. In actual fact, most of these recruitment companies are extremley KPI driven - how many calls you make, the amount of time you spend on the phone, how many CVs you bring in and send out. It's not about quality but quantity. As one MD of a well-known recruitment company said: If you throw enough s*it on the wall something will stick... And this is why the majority of contingency and many so called search firms provide an absolutley appaling service to both candidates and clients and the industry have an awful reputation! A real Headhunter will know and understand the industry they work in and won't rely on databases to fill positions! |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Mr Manager ()
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| Company: |
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| I've worked with a number of headhunting firms both as a client and a candidate and am truly shocked by the tactics and demeanour of many of those I've worked with. I would love to list the worst offendors, but doubt it would be published.
That said, there are a number of exceptions out there and I always try to avoid tarring all firms with the same brush.
The fault lies with the HR Departments themselves. Agencies respond to what they can get away with, but HR Depts (espc at the big banks) should be more proactive in monitoring the activities of their suppliers and reigning in the loose canons. They are representing their company to their applicants after all.
That said, HR Depts prefer the easy life and just let this continue. It amazes me that a number of the firms on Goldman's PSL manage to survive year after year! |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
PPDA ()
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| Company: |
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| Mr Manager, Goldman is probably the worst culprit as their PSL is the easiest to get on to. They do not care who they do business with and just want to see VOLUME. They have no particular vacancy in mind but just want “Goldman material” and so encourage CV spray & pray tactics. Only 1 or 2 agencies really get repeat business from them and it is not because they are better but because they are more aggressive and more connected with partners.
Funny how when times are tough it is the HH who always get the blame. HH in many ways make markets. They make things happen and the good ones will hold the keys to senior hiring managers.
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Michael ()
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| Company: |
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| I think what Dominic says is partly true but then why do sites like Wilmott permit agencies like Huxley and Orgtel which are basically the same company and part of one large group to advertise fake jobs and then carpet bomb them everwhere? When I ring such companies-all they are interested in doing is getting information and the knowledge of their recruiters is absolutely appalling. |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
James ()
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| Company: |
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| Dominic- what are you gaining by writing this article? Are you trying to promote to the world that you are "different." Who do you work for anyway?Your article is very slimy, promoting only youself. I have seen you on the Wilmott forum and you do the same there. |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
V ()
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| Company: |
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| HR only use the bigger agencies that have been in the industry a long time. They never heck the level of service. When I , as a manager, ask to use a brand that is not on the PSL, I am forbidden. We have had larger companies on our PSL for so long and yet the amount of irrelevant CVs that i receive- I cannot tell you. |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Anon ()
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| Company: |
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| Who do you work for Dominic? |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Jon ()
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| Company: |
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| Why on earth did that conference allow you in?Your whole article is about self promotion.Very cunning. If I was a candidate, I would never work with you. |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Another quant headhunter ()
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| Company: |
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| Dominic Connor - I heard at the Global Derivatives Conference in Paris that you made a complete fool of yourself. I heard you asked many questions in lectures that were irrelevant and also made a lot of innappropriate comments.
Dominic you are not aheadhunter, you do not headhunt, juniors send you their CV because you have a large public presence on wilmott.com. Please do not talk for the rest of us when you are a CV shifter, who does not actually conduct a systematic search on behalf of a bank or fund. |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Geek ()
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| Company: |
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| Too right. Speaking as somebody who works at GS, I'm amazed by the monkeys I get calling me trying to sell in their candidates. I wish HR would do a purge, but repeated demands fall on deaf ears! |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
parasite x ()
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| Company: |
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| The funniest of all of this debate is that is a response to City Boy.
Someone who has given up on being the atypical professional City Darling career when the table turns to be no-more than a suited Big Brother contestant with acts of shameless self promotion, grassing on his mates and slagging off his own proper job and peers.
All from a guy who looks like a trainee IT support at a 3rd tier manufacturing company in Slough. Dear oh dear.
And did someone mention the damage done? CV getting on a bosses desk and them losing a career. What about the dice chuckers in the front office who have caused a global recession. How many jobs have been lost to the incompetance of people with 'proper jobs'? |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
woodcv ()
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| Company: |
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| I think it is time you got your "reassuringly expensive lawyer" out DCFC. By the way what kind of hypocrisy is it whereby you say on your forum that "certain firms" are un ethical and unprofessional, yet you happily take their advertising money? |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Christian ()
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| Company: |
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| The bigger agencies always steal staff yet the banks still use them as they have no idea. They respond to a name. They could get sued for millions for doing that. When they sign a PSL agreement, these companies agree not to poach people- yet I know of several big names that regularly do this. We should name and shame so these companies do not get away with things.Are all these adverts I see on Wilmott and here by ten -twenty people from the same company real? |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Rory ()
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| Company: |
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| I did CCF at school. Whats the big deal? |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Robin Keck ()
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| Company: |
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| What has any of this got to do with tennis?
Robin Keck (Headhunter) |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Moper ()
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| Company: |
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| Interesting. eFinancialCareers sends out its email link and suddenly there's a barage of disgruntled phone monkeys leaping to defend their profession.
James, Anon and Jon, who do you work for? Bet its one of those faceless S3 firms who have suddenly found their phones aren't ringing and there's nowhere to spam their CVs, so are trying to discredit the author of an article that cuts close to the mark.
Whether Dominic got pissed at some conference or not doesn't matter. He still raises a good issue and I hope that HR Dept will make use of the market downturn and get their houses in order. |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Daniel ()
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| Company: |
|
| Very well said.I think head hunters get a hard time. I have come accross a few really good ones and I find the larger companies are actually the ones that promote spamming CVs and seeing what sticks.HR departments should sort things out and not let companies like these rule the market and speak for all the other recruiters out there.
Dominic- let us be real- you are not really a headhunter. It is like a game of poker and you have the most chips because you have a huge public presence. I hear very bad things about the way you work and the fact that you were even at that conference trying to pach people- speaks for itself. |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Mark ()
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| Company: |
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| Fault is with HR. It is ladies who like to be wined and dined by the bigger agencies and these big companies have a business developer whose role it is to pamper to HR hence they ensure that they will stay on the PSL forever and other good companies will never get a chance. HR make a mockery of the whole system and then the agencies that are on their PSL rape their teams of candidates. Open your eyes. |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
James ()
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| Company: |
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| The way GS works is fine. At least they give people a chance. Other banks like BNP and JPM are a joke. They only go to people who basically flirt with their HR for a job. |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Tim ()
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| Company: |
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| Dominic- why do you allow the same4-5 larger companies to advertise on Wilmott when you pretend to be so different? Wilmott has become a joke. Gone are the days - when the jobs were real. Any day you go onto it- you see the same jobs, worded in a different way by the same 4-5 culprits.So basically you are acting like a two faced pimp. You have made a fool of yourself in this article. And the candidates who actually discuss things with you on the wilmott forums- they need to understand- you are a cunning person saying what you think the world wants to hear. |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Chuck ()
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| Company: |
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| Let's keep it real; noone is saying anyone got pissed up - besides, if anyone did that is (at least in part) what conferences are for. I think the incident about someone making a fool of themself was more referring to a generally low appreciation for what is tactful behaviour during presentations and Q&A sessions.
The real issue here is (as someone else has said) treating all recruitment companies as if there were no discernible difference in the quality of service. "Headhunting" proper involves doing in-depth market research at the specific behest of a retained client. Carpet bombing, fake advertising etc. is NOT related to headhunting - whether our friend from the Wilmott pages realises that what he does isn't actually headhunting is another story. |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Jamesisatool ()
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| Company: |
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| "The way GS works is fine. At least they give people a chance. Other banks like BNP and JPM are a joke. They only go to people who basically flirt with their HR for a job."
Flirting is fun James, you should try it. |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Xuan ()
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| Company: |
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| Yes let us all flirt and make the system worse than it is. Which headhunting company do you work for I wander? Another faceless one? |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Pierre ()
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| Company: |
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| I think the recruiters at these big contingency firms are recruiters and carpet bombers as Dominic says.I did not know some of the bigger ones are all part of the same group too. I find that very shocking and worrying that if one has my CV , then others can easily get it too in the same group.I think what I read about HR departments then is bad. They should not use the ones who pamper them but good , trustworthy ones. |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Karla HR ()
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| Company: |
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| Yes let us all flirt and make the system worse than it is. Which headhunting company do you work for I wander? Another faceless one?
Xuan 2 mins ago
Why dont we just start with the flirting and then move on to making the system even worse. We dont want to take on too much at once.... |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Jolly Recruiter ()
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| Company: |
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| 28, hapily married, enjoy my job, earned £250k last year. Never lied, cheated or falsified. Sleep well every night.
Henry; the taste of failure is so sweet |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Rob ()
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| Company: |
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| Large recruitment firms have become extremely unethical and will go to any lengths to make money. HR managers are aware that the PSL agreements they have in place with some of these large companies are being violated. These HR managers are also behaving in an extremely unethical manner by getting wined and dined (or bribed) and turning a blind eye in return. They have a duty to their shareholders who pay their salary and bonuses .
I worked as a recruitment consultant for a few months at a well known firm (who advertise a lot on Wilmott) and one evening on a night out with some HR girls from a large bank, our firm's business developer openly proposed to them that they should ignore CVs from some of their competitors and pass on exceptional candidates to us. In return they would regularly get taken to the best restaurants, box seats at Arsenal home matches, hampers at Christmas etc. The bank's shareholders are the ones who ultimately lose. My advice is that HR should listen to the desk managers which firms to use. HR should act more ethically and inform their managers of firms they suspect of violating PSLs and banks should strike off firms guilty of this. |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Kathy ()
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| Company: |
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| Karla, your comment doesn't make sense. Stop trying to be clever. |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Geronimo ()
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| Company: |
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| Ha! Ha! Well put Jolly Recruiter, I have just sold my rec business for close to £20m and am actually writing this e mail off a beach. Oh Henry, get back to your real job and enjoy it whilst it lasts....... |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
JS ()
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| Company: |
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| Its bad enough seeing an interesting question in 'answers' hijacked by a long, rambling, not to mention completely irrelevant, reply. Now I can't help but wonder why, for all the mind numbing self important platitude he posts on this website, this person is being rewarded with a soap box to spout, er, more mind numbing self important platitude?
I mean does anyone actually take seriously someone who insists on beginning every post with "As a headhunter..."? |
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| Date: |
03 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
anon ()
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| Company: |
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| The real question is, which bank has the best-looking girls in HR? |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Henry ()
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| Company: |
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| "28, hapily married, enjoy my job, earned £250k last year. Never lied, cheated or falsified. Sleep well every night.
Henry; the taste of failure is so sweet
Jolly Recruiter 8 hours ago"
Earning £250k age 27/28 is pathetic, that's what a 24yo should be earning. And an ever so slightly more cyclical market than IB, how do you expect to maintain that this year with every other firm on a hiring freeze? |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Dominic Connor ()
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| Company: |
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| A few responses to the comments.
Several comments have been made about my looks, as if this were important.
As it happens, I did warn the editor that pictures of me would not make the world a prettier place :)
I don't "work for Paul Wilmott" that is not the nature of the business relationship, but I do teach C++ on the CQF, which is not an obvious activity for a HH.
I was at the conference to find people, yes, that's my job. Guilty as charged.
I learned a bit as well. Other firms have other methods, I think good candidates like to know who they are dealing with.
I say "as a headhunter" on my own comments on this site because the label says "HR & Recruitment", it helps people know which side of the process I work. I am not so "self important" that I believe everyone knows me (yet), so I tell them. Some who think I only write what the world wants to hear really hasn't read much of what I've written. We maintain high personal profiles as part of our marketing. When I approach people, they frequently know who I am.
All I can say about my "dumb questions" at GD is that 2 of the speakers have now asked me to find people for their firm, not a trivial thing in the current market. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Not overly relevant...... ()
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| Company: |
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| Ok people, it's easy to trash a profession especially one where ultimately we (the headhunter / search consultant etc) present you with opportunities that may not always work out. Ultimately there are people in all professions that act unethically but the beauty of this world especially with so many recruitment / search professionals out there, is that we have freedom of choice as to who we use or not.
Having worked in the Search business for quite a number of years and surrounded myself with good, decent and ethical colleagues who actually give a sh*t about our clients, their business and ultimaltely our candidates, I know that this business can truly add value. Maybe some of you have not worked with Boutique specialist firms that are the exception it would seem to the rule.
On another note, the whole GS thing - why do you think they invite so many firms to join their PSL? And guys this is not rocket science......
any ideas.......?
.......it's because the moment you sign, you are commited to at least 12 months non-solicitation. Ultimately the PL works in the favor - where possible they will fill roles internally or directly and throw a few scraps out to the wider |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
anon ()
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| Company: |
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| Dominic. Fair play to you in coming back and responding. What do you have to say on the charges of hypocricy in terms of advertising on the Wilmott site? |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Bill ()
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| Company: |
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| Yes your looks should not be attacked as that is just not relevant but the same recruitment firms are guilty on Wilmott. I see the sames names and that is it. Hardly anybody else. The whole market knows that a few of these are guilty for just writing fake adverts and trying to increase their database. Why are you not more cut throat with them as it just makes your website look very silly.Managers in the industry should be aware how certain firms are working. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Howard ()
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| Company: |
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| I am going to go onto Wilmott now and see which firms these are that seem to be continuously putting the same adverts out and stay clear of them. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Richard M ()
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| Company: |
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| Amazing that recruitment firms resort to bribing HR. How pathetic and typical! I know friends in a recruitment firm who tell me that when other agencies send them a CV and they are not on the PSL- the HR from the Bank sends the CVs to their favourite company who is on the PSL. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
DominiConnor ()
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| Company: |
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| First up I do not own Wilmott.com, as the name suggests. PaulDominic.com is a rather more quiet place.
Many people say to me that a lot of job ads in all media are fakes. But I am not sure how they could easily know. Presumably a competent faker uses the same advert for real and fake. OK, assume they are right, and that I am in position to block them. How would I spot the fake ads ?
No magazine or website has enough power that refusing to take legal adverts has any real effect upon those who buy them.
That sounds like a bit of a cop out doesn't it ?
OK, a better argument.
Do you think a magazine or website has the right to censor those who it suspects are not good people ?
As a HH I hear lots of things about lots of firms both competitors and clients. But what is the quality of that information ?
If you ran a firm and a website or magazine refused your business "because you are bad", would you think :
a) I must mend my ways
b) These people are tossers.
I think I have the ear of a reasonable number of people, but the idea that I can dictate how the whole recruitment business works is sadly not on.
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Jess ()
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| Company: |
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| Dominic-Did you have to pay to go on the conference? |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
rufina maluca ()
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| Company: |
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| Love head dunters. Love parasites too, they are so great!! God bless headhunters and Investment Banking! |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
William ()
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| Company: |
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| Who do you work for then Dominic? The way you write on the Wilmott forums it seems you have a very nice deal going on there with Mister Wilmott. What is your core market Dominic? |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
David ()
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| Company: |
|
| I have worked with some great headhunters in the past and some not so great ones. It is the same in any profession. You get the people who are amazing in their field and then just your average every day monkey. HR ladies are way more stupid than any recruiter I have met especially as if that is the way they choose who goes onto a PSL. Unbelievable!! |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Phil ()
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| Company: |
|
| Wilmott adverts are hilarious. It is the same companies on every page with the same 2-3 people writing the adverts in different ways and changing a few words here or there. Why would anyone send their CVS to these recruitment companies? I even have friends in some of these companies and I know for a fact they are encouraged to place as many adverts as possible so they can capture a wider audience. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Alex ()
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| Company: |
|
| Your latest answer does not answer the questions that have been posed Dominic . It is the same 5 companies and it seems you guys do not even check the adverts. How these companies can post on average so many new adverts a day in such a market which is full of hiring freezes is beyond me. No-one says you need to stop them all but if you are such a public figure -then do something about it- get involved. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Jim ()
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| Company: |
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| I replied to the Wilmott advertisers. They basically ask you a million questions to get leads from you and then they ask you the same questions again and again. They give zero feedback after interviews. They never talk about the job you ring them about but they sell your other jobs. Some of the adverts they write are ridiculous and most look the same. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Lisa ()
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| Company: |
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| Who is Dominic? Does he exist? Why do we never hear anything about him? |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
DominiConnor ()
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| Company: |
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| Our core market is quants, jobs that require significant maths ability in structuring, Credit, IT, trading, risk, algorithmic trading etc. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Robert L ()
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| Company: |
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| I just went onto the Wilmott site. I know what you mean now. Page after page it is the same usual suspects. It seems that the larger your advertising budget- the more you can cheat the system. Very interesting discussion. I have learnt never to send my CVs to these larger sharks. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Sarah ()
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| Company: |
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| Is it your own company Dominic? Which company were you at before? |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Ron ()
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| Company: |
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| Is Paul Wilmott the Paul in the name of PaulDominic? |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
HH ()
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| Company: |
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| This is the most ridiculous article I ever read and Dominic, you are the shame of the recruitment industry! Instead of admitting how bad you are, you better prove the opposite and do so by improving the level of service you provide. I think that we - search professionals should get together and sue him for damaging the reputation of our profession.
I also agree with some of the negative comments… But there are some good people and some bad people, some are professional and some are not. Those who are good commit to what they do, do it well and make fortunes. Not good ones don’t last long… But you can’t judge the whole industry based on some bad experiences.
I think a lot of people miss the point thinking of recruitment and headhunting as the same, but they are different!!! If send your CV to every recruiter you know don’t be surprised that he will be sending it to every manger he knows as well.
Just have a look at public profile of Dominic on LinkedIn (aka Recruiter/Headhunter) and one of his recommendations… ““I've used Dominic as headhunter for entry-level quant and quant developer positions…”. Dominic, where do you head hunt for entry level quant roles, at universities???
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Jerome ()
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| Company: |
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| Dominic what do you think about HR using the same agencies and just choosing those that pamper them the most rather than those who are actually good at the job but cannot afford to pamper them? |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
recruiter ()
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| Company: |
|
| Just a quick one - I work for one of the firms with loads of advertising on Wilmott (and yes, we do have a huge advertising budget). I can only talk about 2/3rds of the jobs, but these are real positions with real firms. I'm not recruiting for them myself, but other colleagues of mine I know are.
Most of the positions we're advertising are in HK/NY, where we still remain significantly busier than London. In London we've got a couple of search mandates out but the market is an awful lot quieter.
Quant Finance and risk are still hiring in isolated pockets in London. It's our front-end sales and trading business that is really tanking.
We've had a recent across the board cut on our advertising quotas, so it makes no sense for us to advertise vacancies we don't have. It'd also land us in a disciplinary if we were caught doing it by management.
Don't get too sucked into conspiracy theories - we're working real jobs with real clients. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
HeadHunter ()
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| Company: |
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| This is the most ridiculous article I ever read and Dominic, you are the shame of the recruitment industry! Instead of admitting how bad you are, you better prove the opposite and do so by improving the level of service you provide. I think that we - search professionals should get together and sue him for damaging the reputation of our profession.
I also agree with some of the negative comments… But there are some good people and some bad people, some are professional and some are not. Those who are good commit to what they do, do it well and make fortunes. Not good ones don’t last long… But you can’t judge the whole industry based on some bad experiences.
I think a lot of people miss the point thinking of recruitment and headhunting as the same, but they are different!!! If send your CV to every recruiter you know don’t be surprised that he will be sending it to every manger he knows as well.
Just have a look at public profile of Dominic on LinkedIn (aka Recruiter/Headhunter) and one of his recommendations… ““I've used Dominic as headhunter for entry-level quant and quant developer positions…”. Dominic, where do you head hunt for entry level quant roles, at universities???
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
DominiConnor ()
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| Company: |
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| I can assure you Lisa that I do really exist, :)
I'm sorry Alex if I didn't cover everything asked, but I do not own Wilmott.com, efinancialcareers or jobserve. My position in the article is that the people that will most affect the behaviour of agencies are the clients and the candidates. A serious impact on either will be taken far more seriously than some web site giving them grief over their ads.
One IB dropping a supplier can cost them far more money than they spend on ads. Cut off a place to advertise, they spend elsewhere, cut off the flow of business, it hurts.
As for adverts looking the same, I will share that it's tough to make every one sparkling and unique, so I have symapthy with the advertisers.
I used to have a real job once, and so I know that some HHs are more interested in sucking your contact from you than getting a job, indeed in our quant career book, we explain about how to deal with this.
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
DominiConnor ()
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| Company: |
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| Jerome, obviously I would like to elbow my way into a few more banksPSLs. It would be comforting for me to believe the idea that the holdouts are not on board because of some nice meals bought for HR.
I personally do not think that is the main driver, and even when it is, the solution is not to try and outbid them.
HH says this my article is ridiculous, he is entitled to that opinion, and of course to comment upon my LinkedIn Profile. But he is more being a little naive to believe that our whole business can be characterised by one comment by a client. We do people varying from entry level to some people who are actually rather well known in this industry, but if he'd worked at that level he'd know names are not put on public websites. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Josh ()
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| Company: |
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| To the recruiter who just wrote and claimed all the jobs are real. I am also a recruiter in one of these firms and come on what is the need to lie? We all know management would do nothing in the same way management does nothing when we break PSLs and poach candidates from teams we place with.
We are only interested in making money . Dont play the conspiracy theory card. I have friends in those guilty few firms and I know for a fact that they advertise fake jobs. Every Friday you are told to put out new adverts before the week-end so you can get more "fish in the net". You are told " it is a numbers game." |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Tom ()
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| Company: |
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| What HH wrote is ridiculous. Obviously he must come from a large recruitment company advertising on Wilmott and is embarrassed by this article. So what if Dominic places entry level? Why does that make you so insecure? |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Damon ()
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| Company: |
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| But Dominic have you noticed banks do not drop suppliers as it is HR that decides usually and they choose the same larger agencies without even checking and understanding that it is these larger companies that break the contracts and rules. I think if the Managers actually realized this- they would not want to work with the same people. Most recruitment firms hire these business developers and just make them ass wipe HR 24/7 and that is their entire job. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Lola ()
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| Company: |
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| The recruitment industry has shame? |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Sam ()
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| Company: |
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| Dom- is it true some of these larger companies aare all part of the same company? I keep hearing this and I find it appalling that they share information. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Anon ()
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| Company: |
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| Come on Mr Recruiter- I am not even a recruiter but my partner works as a recruiter and I am told how firms encourage you to blast out adverts daily whether there is a job or not. Of course the jobs on Wilmott are not "all real". Please. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Buysider ()
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| Company: |
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| Talk to any CEO of any Investment Bank , Hedge Fund or Asset Manger and they will all tell you their most imporatant assets walk out of the door at the end of each night. Recruiters, contigency or search, all basically do the same thing. IE act as a broker of these assets.
Whether the detractors on this thread like it or not, recruiters are a necesary intermediary, matching employers to candidate and vice versa. We also play a valueable role in weeding out the under-performers, liars and "wannabes but not capable of being". Not only that, we are also capable of banging the drum for those genuine individuals needing a leg up in their career.
As someone who has worked in the recruitment sector for 10 years I know one thing for cetain - the succesful recruiters out there work very hard for their money and are in the main very astute individuals.
Honestly , in my career, I have never misrepresented a job to a candidates or a candidate to a client. I take what I do seriously and intend to carry doing it for another 10 year so please stop knocking my profession - its not very clever and it smacks of sour grapes.
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
anon ()
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| Company: |
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| I must say this bashing of largers firms is a little generalist. Coming from a small 'boutique' firm into one of the larger firms, I can wholeheatedly say that it was the smaller firms that worked the system, fake advertising, HR schmoozing, general pimping. I have had a massive wake up call since moving, everything is above board to the point of militant precision as this is the only way to develop and maintain long term relationships, not just work for the quick fix.. I am not naive and am well aware of my counterparts reputations, but try not to tar us all with the same corrupt brush.. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
recruiter ()
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| Company: |
|
| Sam - just quick one. Some of us are part of the same group but this is only a holding company to create a bigger position for equity investments etc and we share some central services such as HR and IT. We find this a highly effective way to grow businesses quicker and expose them to less risk (there are a few that haven't worked and we can put the consultants from these firms back into other businesses).
The candidate and client databases etc are separate and we genuinely compete with one another, so your information doesn't leave the firm and go to anyone else. Wanted to clear that one up as this definitely doesn't happen. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
HH ()
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| Company: |
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| Yes, I am embarrassed by this article because there are a lot of good and professional people in this industry doing good job. There is nothing wrong in placing junior candidates; Dominic has a good recommendation from his client and my respect for that. But placing junior candidate is not headhunting, this is recruiting…. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Tom ()
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| Company: |
|
| If you are sharing HR and IT, surely it must be then possible for you to share the same database too? Information can easily get passed around and into the wrong hands. Obviously you will not admit this. I know people who work for faceless companies and they discuss candidate names openly and clients openly. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Rick ()
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| Company: |
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| So your main aim is to make a lot of money and increase companies within your business when each company is doing the same thing? You should then make it quite clear to the market that you are all one brand.
Candidates and clients have a right to know. If your IT guys are the same-it is easy then to share information. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Max ()
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| Company: |
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| That is very interesting being part of a same group. I wander if the same group agencies are on PSL's. Surely they are just raping the market? Does anyone know which companies are in the same group? I was under the impression that this was not the case. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Shane ()
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| Company: |
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| I have heard horror stories of candidates sending CVs to company one , and then getting headhunted later by company 2 and company 2 letting slip they knew information which the candidate only told company one within a difference of a couple of days. Through research -both companies were part of the same group. Are you telling us that people in the same group " do not discuss" people they are placing and working with. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Not a ()
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| Company: |
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| Having completed a degree at a red brick uni and done the typical "grad job" at a Top 250 company, I can safely say that recruitment is far more rewarding both financially and emotionally and certainly not for "failed grads" |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Christopher ()
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| Company: |
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| To Anon- get real. Nothing is above board in these big firms. I work for a huge recruitment firm and we do everything that is not above board and if we get caught , we pretend to make a huge hoo haa , when internally we do nothing. Let us not pretend we are angels at big firms. We may have a huge brand and money but we are as dodgy as hell in terms of fake adverts, lying to get leads. We even get training on how to do this regularly. I cannot comment on what you said about working at a boutique firm as I have never worked at one but I have 2 years in the industry and as a large firm, we try to work with everyone and we poach from everyone. There is no military precision involved. Until we get caught, we continue to do this. The main aim is to hit targets, make money and it does not matter how much we lie or write fake adverts or steal from people with whom we have signed contracts with. I have been trained from day one that this is what recruitment is. We are on nearly every PSL and it suits us having a business developer because we just focus on carpet bombing whilst the business developer keeps HR sweet!! |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Lee ()
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| Company: |
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| Is every company part of one brand? What is the score? |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Xian ()
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| Company: |
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| I am amazed. I thought all these companies were completely separate. If they are owned by one entity and are sharing resources then it makes no sense to compete? It makes sense only for them no? |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Steph ()
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| Company: |
|
| Nobody is bashing anyone here. It is just that when you contact a larger firm, the level of service you can receive is absolutely awful. It seems to be like a gravy train where they hire lots of young grads to be recruiters and give them a tiny base salary and then encourage them to cold call people and carpet bomb people. The recruiters you talk to seem to have very little knowledge when you ask them simple questions. I know some agencies that send out spam emails every day nearly without even checking who they send to. My sister receives such emails and she is no longer in Finance even. It is really very unprofessional. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Anon ()
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| Company: |
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| I work at a firm where we have to go on the most dull training and we are taught which kinds of leading questions to ask and how to "pretend we care" about the candidate. My colleague has been on some unbelievable courses which train us and brainwash us to always be sly. When we place a candidate, the whole company knows about it. I hate the training. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Lorn ()
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| Company: |
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| I do not know much about recruitment but no serious competitors would share the same resources especially someone as important as IT. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Anon ()
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| Company: |
|
| Christopher -as corrupt and as highly suspect as your business practices may be, mine are not. Consistent repeat business in this market stems from knowing what you are talking about not whoring your wares to all and sundry.. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
DominiConnor ()
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| Company: |
|
| Sam, I don't claim to a deep knowledge of the corporate structures of competing firms, but there is nothing inherently dodgy in having a group structure, rather than a single company. Most large firms in most lines of business are set up like that.
Also if you have grown by acquiring other firms, it can make more sense to leave their management structure and brand name in place.
There's tax stuff as well of course.
Some recruitment firms operate in radically different areas. Contract IT is a very different culture than senior quants, for instance. It would be risky to try and mix them too much.
I believe Recruiter when he says the databases are separate, there are good commercial reasons for this. Managing a sales force can be like trying to herd a load of cats. You want clear boundaries between their respective patches. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Charles ()
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| Company: |
|
| Consistent repeat business stems from being a large firm and from already being on PSLs not through any hard work of an individual recruiter. All recruiters work in a similar way. I have worked at 2 mid to large firms and both ring a bell like a cow when a deal is done, both advertise sham jobs, both break contracts and so much more. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Rebecca ()
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| Company: |
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| I am surprised at these companies that share data. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Raoul ()
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| Company: |
|
| That is hilarious that recruiters are forced to go on training that trains them to be even more devious. Are average recruiters in this market not getting the sack also? |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Gareth ()
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| Company: |
|
| Anon must be the owner of one of these spamming firms!!! Well done mate! |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Bertrand ()
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| Company: |
|
| Which firms are the same ones? |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Anon ()
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| Company: |
|
| I replied to one large firm from Wilmott -never again!! |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
recruiter ()
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| Company: |
|
| Couple of conclusions we can therefore draw:
- recruitment firms differ widely in their approach
- they also vary hugely in their ethicality and business "tactics"
This is presumably because it is an unregulated industry with little laws to affect what we do (I think REC was mentioned earlier - it is not a regulatory body, and you don't have to sign up to it). Some firms are well-known wide boys and I'd never want to work there.
I work at my current firm because I like the team, I genuinely know the market I work in well, and I'm not encouraged to do anything I think is unethical.
Recruitment firms differ - because one is terrible doesn't mean that every other one is. This is where someone like Cityboy is wrong, and this is the point that Dominic has made in the article. Some are geninely terrible, some are really good. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
recruiter ()
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| Company: |
|
| Shane/Max
I can't comment on every recruitment group as I only work for one of them. However, I can comment on ours and say we genuinely don't share information. I'd love to have some of the material that other companies in the group do, but I simply don't. We're also all not on the same PSLs. They are in with some funds and houses I'd love to work with and I'm sure they feel the same about me.
I can see it happening elsewhere though. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Peter ()
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| Company: |
|
| HR ladies should not take bribes and kick the firms that steal from them off their PSL!!!!!!!! |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Anon ()
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| Company: |
|
| In our company, our business developer has a huge mouth and is always reeling off client and candidate names to other groups in our company. It happens all the time. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
|
| Name/Email: |
Dominic Connor ()
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| Company: |
|
| REC and the other "industry bodies" have the job of lobbying for recruitment firms, and presenting them as nice people to do business with. I suspect they have a code of contact, I can't be bothered to find out because they cannot enforce it.
One should not confuse one's PR people with compliance.
|
|
| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Anon ()
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| Company: |
|
| I am in a "group " company and we might not be on every single same PSL but we are on most of the same ones. If I moved group, I could do the same job easily. Most of the data we have on our database is similar too I am sure and down the pub of course we chat about clients and candidates. I do not see the other parts of the group as " real competition." We are friends, we share the same trips on holiday targets, we date people from the other groups. Information is passed along whether that is intentionally or not but it is passed along. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Dixon ()
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| Company: |
|
| Maybe they do not share all the data but if such confidential information can be passed along with such ease, then I do not feel comfortable with this.How many are in one group? Just one or two or more than that? |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Anon ()
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| Company: |
|
| How many in your firm Dominic? |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
|
| Name/Email: |
Dominic Connor ()
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| Company: |
|
| Dixon, groups vary a lot. Can be 20. |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Mike ()
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| Company: |
|
| 20 in a group????? Are you serious? That is a joke!!! They are basically the same company. Who are they? |
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| Date: |
04 Jul 2008
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| Name/Email: |
Anon ()
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| Company: |
|
| I am a client and I had no idea that such groups existed. Where can you find out more information about which company is in which group? |
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